Sexually active gurus, guest posts by Dana and Lara
March 9th, 2013 by Rose Rosetree
Juan Diego Flórez playing a comical sexual predator in Rossini's opera, "Le Comte Ory"
What makes a comment special enough to be promoted to its own post? For starters, a well written point of view on a topic of interest to this online community.
Usually I agree a whole lot with the opinions expressed in a guest post. Not always. Sometimes I disagree (even quite strongly) but want to air perspectives that contrast to mine.
After all, this blog is about DEEPER Perception, not some fantasized ROSE ROSETREE’S OMNISCIENT Perception. 
Definitely, a comment considered as guest post material will always be a fairly long, with a well developed sequence of ideas.
Well, hello! Hello! Two such guest post-worthy comments have arrived close together, comments from DANA and LARA that make superb points.
For a while, this morning, I tried to decide which one to add today, which guest post to save for tomorrow. Then I thought, “Why make us wait? Both of these are so very good.”
Thought-provoking ideas indeed! I can’t wait to read your reactions, Blog-Buddies.
Celibate gurus, sexual predators, Enlightenment…
Oy veh, so much to consider!
Speaking of which, let’s shift the thread from our last post, Enlightenment Scandals, a Guest Post by Mike , to here. Please comment below to participate in the continuing conversation on themes like:
- Does Enlightenment make a teacher sexually trustworthy?
- Can Aura Reading (Energy Literacy) reveal sexual untrustworthiness?
- Is ever okay for a celibate guru or priest to become sexually involved in a secret affair?
- Are sexually active gurus the same as a sexual predator like Jimmy Saville?
- How is Householder Enlightenment different from Renunciate Enlightenment?
- When a sociopath runs a cult dedicated to Enlightenment, can you really expect sexual ethics?
- Has an Enlightened guru fully surrendered to the Divine?
Get ready now for some words of wisdom, first from Blog-Buddy DANA and then from Enlightenment Life Lister, LARA. As usual, I just added headings, minor edits, and some links. Thank you so much, LARA and DANA.
DANA brings clarity first.
Who are we calling “Enlightened” here?
My understanding so far is that Enlightenment means that STUFF doesn’t stick to your aura and, in each chakra databank, there is joy present.
Nowhere in that definition does it say how you should live or act. It seems like you would just be free to choose, not bound by STUFF stuck in your aura, debilitating illusions about who you are and what you can do.
Enlightenment, then, wouldn’t mean celibacy, monogamy, or any “ideal” about sex. Of course I am 100% against sexual abuse of any kind. I’m just saying that I don’t think Enlightenment would make you less humanly sexual in any way.
It seems like there is an Enlightenment Ideal out there, in spiritual circles, in which Enlightenment means you become not human: no big emotions, no sexual interest, a disinterest in the physical. (The Renunciate Enlightenment Ideal?)
The only problem with that is that any Enlightened human is still… human. Enlightened people don’t spontaneously ascend/disappear into another dimension. So if you’re human, you still have emotions, thoughts, beliefs, and a fully functioning body.
Highly-charged topics about sex and Enlightenment
Also I think it would be helpful in this thread to clarify a few things.
- Jimmy Saville was NOT enlightened.
- Most Catholic priests are NOT enlightened.
- Most gurus are NOT enlightened. (For examples, see nominees for Rose’s Enlightenment Life List.)
- Just because someone’s organization tells them they’re not allowed to have sex, it doesn’t mean that they no longer have sexual urges or that ignoring those urges over a lifetime is healthy for them individually.
- If someone from #4 has sex (no abuse involved), it is still called a “sex scandal.”
- Gurus who have non-monogamous sex are NOT necessarily sexual predators.
It is important to not lump together all “people involved in media ‘sex scandals.’” To be better informed, energetic literacy is critical in reading each person individually at relevant chakra databanks.
Now for Lara’s Guest Post on Enlightenment and Sex
It just occurred to me that people here are sooooo respectful, thoughtful, kind to each other here. I don’t know, its different to so many other blogs. Its never stressful reading people’s comments here even when they are disagreeing, it’s always interesting and kind.
I also can’t understand how someone could be Enlightened and abusive. A guru taking advantage of a devotee disgusts me.
But… I can imagine an Enlightened guru, wanting something, and taking advantage of an devotee.
Because being Enlightened you can still have agendas, get angry, annoyed, think “Oh I was mean to that person.” etc.
In Enlightenment, there is not deliberate maliciousness. Just the usual responses.
Far fewer things trigger you and the feelings don’t linger and attach to you.
It also depends what stage of Enlightenment you are in.
But even, or maybe especially in bliss you can have a profound insensitivity to others because of the expansiveness of the state.
There can be a massive detachment from the human condition and a perspective that accepts all things as perfect.
You sit there high like you are on drugs, doing things is difficult and anyway not important, if someone is being raped right next to you, well, that’s all part of the whole which is perfection and there is no urge to interfere at all.
Lara (who lives Householder Enlightenment) imagines:
What if she were an enlightened celibate guru?
So! I put myself in the mind of a guru.
- I am Enlightened.
- I am respected and worshiped by people whom I really adore and love.
- I feel oneness with them.
- I want to devote myself to God, who is in all those around me who have put me on a pedestal.
Well perhaps my ego is miniscule, but I haven’t given up all identity yet.
And I am a bit used to this pedestal.
And no matter how much I live in my upper chakras, I still have sexual energy which occasionally flows sometimes more than usual.
And, well, here is a lovely devotee and she loves me and I love her and we have a special interaction, based on pure intentions and feelings, it’s all good.
Who has the right to judge a consensual love affair?
I have no idea what goes on in their heads, the Enlightened guru and the sexually eager devotee.
But I can imagine that scenario.
Sure, this could be considered irresponsible and inappropriate, given the different relative positions of guru and devotee.
Sure, this could be considered taking advantage.
It still could happen with an Enlightened person.
About that ideal of celibacy in Renunciate Enlightenment
As a side note, I really don’t think fully surrendering to the Divine sublimates or erases sexual energy.
I (in fact it becomes magnificent and flows between you and all things enlivening everything), and I really don’t think its something to aim for, but then I am a householder!
![[del.icio.us]](http://images.del.icio.us/static/img/delicious.small.gif){kind=small}
Amanda
Photo credit for today’s guest post duo goes to Opera News:
http://www.operanews.com/Opera_News_Magazine/2013/2/Departments/Metropolitan_Opera_Broadcast__Le_Comte_Ory.html
Lara, what a wonderful description of bliss. I’ve been in that state and yes, from that perspective this whole debate would be duality and noise – quite aside from the fact that the situations are in the past, happened between people we don’t know, and we’re having a debate made only of mental constructs providing merely another distraction from the present. I remember visiting the internet occasionally and seeing every comment as just that
So I can imagine something like that happening.
Thank you.
Amanda
I am not sure the devotee is sexually eager though… she/he may be just in awe of the guru and thus allows boundaries to be crossed only realising later. Betrayal of sacred trust.
The sex energy can be sublimated. It is, after all, just an energy.
Sex energy reaching the heart centre is transformed into peace, love and compassion.
At the throat and third eye centres it is transformed to intelligence and creativity.
At the crown centre it is transformed to the energy of spirituality.
Read ‘The Spiritual Essence of Man’ by Master Choa Kok Sui if this interests you.
He saw the potential problem to the spiritual aspirant and revealed a technique to manage it.
A boon to people of the cloth who are having difficulty managing this energy.
A boon to householders who are finding it difficult to regulate their sexual desires. (to be practised less often by them since they have chosen the path of non-celibacy).
Adolescents or teenagers can practise this every day to accelerate their mental and spiritual development.
No doubt there are other ways given by other teachers too.
Thanks for your comments, LARA, AMANDA, and JNANA.
About the type of workaround you refer to, JNANA, I can’t speak from knowledge or experience about this particular author.
However, I have read auras of a whole lotta messed up people, caught between householder and renunciate life. Really messed up.
This concept sounds like a very tidy solution. How easy and simple for all the frustrated priests and nuns and monks….
Consider that possibly this is mostly a very appealing notion. “Oh, let’s see, instead of feeling that inconvenient and nasty sexual frustration, enough with that. So disgusting. I will trade it in for intelligence and creativity.”
So appealing. So unlikely.
Lots of people speak of “sublimating” sexual energy. I was always willing to believe that… but personally I haven’t found it to actually be a thing.
I’ve found that sexual energy is… sexual energy. Why you would *want* to sublimate it, instead of just dealing with it as it is, is where the problem lies.
If you have a problem with plain ol’ sexual energy, in it’s most basic form – well I think must mean you have some issue with sexual energy, not that sexual energy itself needs to change form.
Trying to sublimate sexual energy is a bit like trying to change another person ’cause you don’t like them, in my opinion.
Why is sexuality not as Sacred as anything else.
Where does the notion that Sexual energy is something we need to rid ourselves of originate??
Maybe it’s time to start loving and accepting all parts of who we are.
Thank you for these guest posts and comments. These threads are really thought provoking.
As I’ve recovered from sexual anorexia and sex addiction in my life I’m interested in discussions about sexuality. I have experienced the extremes and whilst I’m grateful for all of my experiences, I’m glad that the extremes of renunciation and excess are no longer part of my journey.
I can’t say what it is like as a religious person to be living a chaste life, but I know for me living a sexually anorexic life as a regular human, there wasn’t anything enlightened about it. Anorexia in my experience leads to contempt for other weaker people and a deep sense of superiority.
It’s no more “healthy” than living with a sexual addiction and actually I found the two states were linked. My anorexia brought me to an addiction. Without renunciation I probably wouldn’t have flipped the switch and ended up as an addict. I guess many religious people find that happens to them too.
Sorry if I am repeating myself, but surely it is not the sexual behaviour here that is the problem, but the lying and hypocrisy and cover-ups?
I say, who cares if a guru has sex with every one of his 1000s of devotees, as long as he is honest about it?
(But then maybe it’s just that I care more about a leader’s integrity than their sexual preferences, I don’t know).
Two comments (and also just to say what a great discussion this is):
Firstly, Paige (comment 41), I totally agree with this quote about not expecting our teachers to be perfect or super human. However, that is different from having teachers who say or advocate one thing, but who do something different (and secret) behind closed doors.
Secondly, just to add to my previous comment, yesterday morning I was reading your book, Rose, about ‘Spiritual Cleansing and Protection,’ and you mentioned the Ascended Masters such as Jesus and the Buddha. And I thought, hmm, maybe I have been confusing enlightenment with being an Ascended Master… possibly setting the bar a little high, methinks…
I think the sexual behaviour is a problem on top of the hipocrisy, not because sex is wrong but because of the relative positions of guru and devotee there is a massive imbalance in the motivations and power dynamics of the two people going into it. And for the devotee afterwards it may also taint their spiritual experience.
Even if the guru does not advocate celibacy I think it’s hugely inappropriate to play the role of both guru and sexual partner.
Sublimating sexual energy seems to me like sublimating emotional energy or mental energy.. hey instead of feeling I can more comfortably think my emotions! Isn’t that ‘stuff’? In higher states of enlightenment perhaps the sexual energy is a lot less as the natural focus of the person is on the upper chakras but that doesn’t mean it is an ultimate goal because enlightenment moves on and in other states perhaps sexual energy is necessary. After all we are made really sparely by evolution, nothing superfluous, no pointless extras. (coughapartfromtheappendixcough)
Interesting topic. I remember when I first read that Steve Jobs made the enlightenment list how it made me question what qualifies as enlightenment. Apparently you can be abusive to others and still be enlightened. If its about joy, success in life, and being stuff-free who do you think has a better chance of acheiving enlightenment; an egoistic, narcissistic, driven personality that expects to get their way without considering their impact upon others and often does get their way, and also definately never takes on stuff from others, refuses to get bogged down with stuff like other people’s emotions or opinions or consideration…or an empathic person who is constantly taking on other people’s stuff by default? And putting others first. Unless they learn to keep their empathy turned off, that is. The former is more likely to be more succesful in life, with more joy. Am I understanding correctly that enlightenment is not about behaving saintly or being compassionate or possessing some deep insight direct from God–it is about experiencing joy, being stuff free, basically a self-actualized human having a grand time being human?
In that case an abuser in a position of power could be living quite the joy-filled life, being unburdened as most abusers are of any guilt, responsability, empathy they would also be more stuff free than most.
ANON, so many interesting questions raised in this Comment.
Before my first client comes this morning, I want to clarify something important.
Steve Jobs is not on my Enlightenment Life List.
Here is a link to an alphabetical version of that personal, Rose Rosetree’s Enlightenment Life List:
http://www.rose-rosetree.com/blog/2011/08/05/enlightenment-life-list-energetic-literacy-chakra-databanks/
Also, in “Magnetize Money with Energetic Literacy,” I profiled Steve Jobs among others. I made it clear (or tried to) that he was a fascinating person but not yet Enlightened.
I think Using Deeper Perception we can now avoid being misled by a “Guru” but more to the point maybe the devotee/follower model can be replaced with Deeper perception and Self Authority. Then being a “victim” of someone else’s issues won’t be an issue.
I looked up Steve Jobs in the Magnetize Money book index online, but did not see him listed. Could you please provide the page number? I would like to refresh my memory.
SYLVIA, Steve Jobs is profiled on Page 225 of “Magnetize Money with Energetic Literacy.”
Thanks to all of you for the comments on this theme. I aim to respond later today; lots of sessions today, including England and Turkey. Love that telephone healing!
And caring about all of you in this blog community, so keep a’sharing that wisdom today!
I am really enjoying reading everyone’s comments here. Such a complex subject, and a great workout for the brain! My mind has been spinning with the different angles of it, and I love to hear what people think about any or all of the themes being discussed.
I just wanted to put out the word karma here, in connection with, let’s say, a person who is abused or taken advantage of by a guru.
When a person is in a victim’s situation, that can be a great motivator for that person to later develop power and authority (or self-authority) of their own, so it might be a matter of karma that needs to be worked out on the victim’s part.
I don’t know why an Enlightened person would participate in taking advantage of anyone or abusing their power or lying about it, though. Those seem like actions that would pollute an aura.
I had a teacher once who believed that sexual energy should be channeled up to the divine, or to the level of spirit.
It made me feel ashamed that I had a healthy sexuality and was supposed to be meditating more or being less earthly, more divine.
But that contrast between divine and earthly doesn’t need to be an either/or. I really feel it can be both.
Why not enjoy both, live both and have a partnership between earth and heaven. Since we are in fact part of both, creatures of both the earth and the ether (at least while we’re here!).
Sometimes I think people think of heaven and earth as this dichotomy that can’t be reconciled, like you can only be pure and heavenly, or you be stuck in the mud of earth and concerned with worldly pleasures. An “either-or”. When in fact, why not both?
Lara, re: comment 12
I’m not sure that in Enlightenment the focus becomes more on the upper chakras. I think it’s individual to the person, and how they want to grow and change.
Maybe a particular person has already done lots of work on the upper levels and in order to move forward evolutionally (is that a word?), more might be called for on the lower levels.
Like more gusto in embracing physical life, more enjoyment of sexuality and honoring of the sexual energy, or more decisive tackling of problems at the solar plexus.
It might be very unique to each person as to where they want to put their energy, how best to evolve at a certain point in time.
Ah Julie I agree! I meant at certain points in enlightenment being more in upper chakras, thinking of enlightenment as a long journey with no real arrival point and many campsites along the way. Trying to say one of the campsites may be a focus on upper chakras and less on earthly material life but that is just a transitory point not to be stuck on.
Re your comment 12 Lara, I agree with you absolutely that the power imbalance between pupil and guru renders sexual contact exploitative. Therapists are struck off if they have sex with their clients. It is a shame that spiritual seekers aren’t provided the same degree of protection.
Oh, yes, Lara. Totally. Different campsites and different stops! I have the experience where a certain theme will be “up” for me, at a certain point in time, and that’s what I explore or develop. Then it transitions to something else.
It could be higher, it could be lower, it could be a revisiting of something I’ve visited before! Yeah, kind of like rotating around to the different campsites.
Not in any particular order (that I know of), just according to the need of the moment and what needs to be developed or calls to be developed or seems to be important.
BTW, BLOG-BUDDIES, in case any of you are keeping track, JULE commenting here (like LARA and ADAM) is on our Enlightenment Life List.
It’s fun to get everyone’s perspective, including those who have that state of consciousness. Everyone’s perspective here matters.
Hi all,
I’m so grateful there are other people out there to have this discussion with! I’m used to processing on my own, but something like this feels as if communal discussion is necessary – I’ve loved reading everybody’s points, and once again am amazed by the sheer class and profundity of this community.
Re your comment 20, Julie, I agree that developing more self-authority is a bonus. Seeing an enlightened guru as having human feet of clay is also a bonus, as far as I’m concerned: it’s not healthy to put anybody on a pedestal.
Yes, a perfected teacher with all the lovely auric modelling implied, of course this is more inspiring. But expecting that of someone who hasn’t got there yet is just unhelpful.
After all ‘robes of silk, feet of clay’ actually applies to every one of us. Perhaps the real problem is in the mindset that states that a human being must act perfectly by virtue of their position. ‘Perfection/victims/abusers’ doesn’t look like much of a set of concepts to be holding, for anyone concerned.
This discussion has been tremendously helpful for me to start coming to a kind of equanimity around the issue.
Amanda
Jordan, wow, a whole lot of extra weight lifted off me by your comment.
I think a lot of my issue with this has been around exactly this issue of reconciling the sublime and the basic, and sexual energy can get pretty damn basic
Again, a common theme in humanity – and, taking the heat off the men for a minute, there is this idea of the Madonna and the whore being somehow separate and unreconcilable, whereas they both coexist in every woman.
Perhaps this is one of the big issues here, and I hadn’t thought of it until I read that set of comments above from you, Julie, Paige and Primmie – certainly I feel a whole lot of difference between me in elevated states and with that very basic sexual energy, and have tended to think that elevated is better than basic.
Thanks, ladies. Blimey, more to process!
Amanda
Thank you, Rose, for the Steve Jobs reference!
On the topic of sublimating sexual energy…
I recall Rose’s aura reading of Meryl Streep, where she mentions that enlightened Meryl has reached a level of “God Consciousness,” which is one step above “Cosmic Consciousness.” At this point in her life, Meryl doesn’t find sex terribly interesting:
“Enjoying sex isn’t the problem. It’s contrast. Streep’s waking hours are one lifegasm after another.”
So perhaps that is what some teachings are talking about when they mention transforming sexual energy into something divine? I could see a situation where someone reached such a point, and then someone else in their group concluded this is what happens as one’s consciousness evolves. As I learned from “Magnetizing Money,” sometimes systems are put into place because they worked very well for their founder. The problem is when what suits one person is generalized to be suitable and desirable for all.
Sylvia, I just think it’s important to note that what’s going on with Meryl is not some transformation of sexual energy. Sexual energy is as it is. Sex is just not as interesting to her. (Understandable!)
I think it’s possible to sort of “shove” sexual energy up into higher chakras. But in my experience, that doesn’t mean it suddenly (or ever) transforms into something “better.” It just gives you a weird situation where you have sexual energy in your higher chakras.
If you’re not terribly imbalanced and were just experimenting, then that sexual energy will just fade off naturally, no big deal. But if you make a habit of shoving it upwards and keeping it there, I imagine things could get pretty weird.
I’m not sure if I’m right about this, but my perception about sexual energy (orgasm bursts of light) is that it’s high-ish astral energy. Not divine. Not about to Enlighten you.
Also, there’s energy everywhere! If you want more spiritual or emotional kinds of energy, you can ask for that. You don’t need to go co-opt energy from other chakras!
That’s what I’m doing too, Amanda, is processing. It’s great to have a community of like-minded people where that can happen. Where there’s more to discuss than getting your hair or nails done, weightier issues than that:)
Thanks for your response, Jordan.
I realize I may have not made myself very clear. I simply meant to use that particular example of Meryl as what might be interpreted as “sublimating sexual energy” — not that sublimating would be a good idea.
I also loved your reminder that there is energy everywhere, so no need to co-opt from other chakras!