Blog

Deeper Perception Made Practical

Enlightenment Scandals, a Guest Post by Mike

 

Blog-Buddies, inquiring minds want to know. MIKE, recently active at our online community, has an intensely inquiring mind and he wants to know answers to really Big Questions.

Insightfully, MIKE’s Guest Post for today highlights important concerns about Energy Literacy, Enlightenment, being a smart New Age Consumer or Spiritual Consumer. Basically, how to protect yourself in a world of gurus and celebs who may not be as perfect as they appear.

He has pulled so much information together in this fascinating Guest Post. Here are his words, with my minor edits, links, and headings. Go, MIKE!

How can someone Enlightened act imperfectly?

I am currently trying to process some of the information that I have gathered from accessing your wonderful blog. I am very aware that “The Truth” is paradoxical and often contradictory.

I am trying to make sense of those candidates who have made it onto your “Enlightenment Life List” but who have also potentially been accused of either a sex scandal or of having consensual sex with a devotee (whilst maintaing that they are celibate).

I am well aware from my own work with sexual assault and child sexual abuse that someones life can be ruined due to false allegations. And believe me, these sort of allegations are unfortunately very common.

They occur for multiple reasons ranging from psychotic delusional illness i.e erotomania (where an individual is delusional that another person is in love with them, usually famous people or authority figures), personality disorders (seeking attention or vindictive manipulation), revenge, political motive for discrediting someone, psychological transference, etc.

Then on the other hand you have the careful sexual groomer who preys on the vulnerable, children, adolescents, devotees, college students. These individuals can often appear to be “Pillars of the community,” highly respectable family-orientated individuals, as well as people in positions of power: Police, judges, teachers, priests, celebrities etc.

It can be almost impossible at times to get to the truth of allegations. The adversarial judicial system is often not even trying to get to the truth… but just focuses on discrediting either the victim or the accused.

Thus I feel one must be oh-so-careful in labelling someone a perpetrator unless there is hard evidence or a confession.

Enlightenment Scandals, starting with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

Let’s take Maharishi Mahesh Yogi as an example. Allegations (As in the song “Sexy Sadie” from Beatles) began early on the late 60?s at Rishikesh, with Mia Farrow claiming that after meditating with Maharishi, he got up and hugged her.

She felt that he was “Coming on” to her sexually and ran out of the room in tears.

We then hear (publicly) of no further scandal’s/allegations whilst the founder of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) Program was alive.

Maharishi dies in 2008. Then Judith Bourque, a close devotee of Maharishi, brings out a book detailing a love affair (involving a sexual relationship) with Maharishi: “Robes of Silk, Feet of Clay.”

She states that she broke it off with him as he was becoming interested in other women.

Mark Landau (also on Rose Rosetree’s Enlightenment Life List) has stated that, as Maharishi’s personal secretary, he was required to bring women to Maharishi’s room.

He states he is “pretty” certain that this was for sex.

Now here is the problem. Maharishi is dead and cannot defend himself. We will never know the truth. Judith and Mark may both have their own agendas and grievances.

Enlightened World Gurus and Other Public Figures’ Sex Scandals

There are similarities with Swami Muktananda (also on the list) and Swami Satchitananda (also on list) and Swami Rama and Swami Kriyananda (Yogananda’s American Disciple) and Swami Nithyananda and Sant Thakar Singh — Rhadaswami Guru (who, I think, confessed)…….

See also a recent New York Times article replete with details about sex scandals among the Enlightened, including John Friend of Anusara Yoga and the late Swami Satchitananda.

Not that Jimmy Saville was famous for being a saint

In the UK currently we have the “Jimmy Saville” sex scandal. Saville was a celebrity (BBC Disc Jockey). Only after his recent death have countless people (Hundreds!) come forward to say they were sexually assaulted by him.

Often allegations were not made at the time, as the victims felt they would not be believed. Their word against a celebrity! (Jimmy Saville was also a great philanthropist and even friendly with some of the Royal Family).

Jimmy Saville is now dead and cannot be tried via the legal system. But it seems possible that in the 60?s, 70?s, and 80?s in particular, if you were famous, you could get away with this sort of sexual abuse.

In Jimmy Saville’s case, although there can be no trial, the authorities (both police and government figures) have concluded that the sheer number of complainants is sufficient to conclude that Saville must hav been a pedophile.

And one more sex scandal from the Catholic church

Only just last week, a group of current Catholic priests, and ex-priests reported another sex scandal for the Catholic church.

These Catholics and ex-Catholics revealed Britain’s most senior member of the clergy, Cardinal Keith O’Brien, had sexually assaulted them back in the 70?s when they were in training.

Initially Cardinal O’Brien denied the allegations. In the last few days, the church leader confessed and resigned his position. I suspect that if he had not confessed, it would all have been largely hard to prove (one person’s word against another).

I am citing these examples in order to demonstrate how difficult it can be to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Can Energy Literacy help us as Spiritual Consumers?

It would be reasonable therefore to think that Energetic Literacy could help us sort the wheat from the chaff?

If I were a female looking at becoming a devotee of a male guru, I might get an aura reading that shows they are Enlightened. But would this protect me from sexual abuse?

I thought the idea of Energetic Literacy was to help me be a savvy consumer and help avoid pitfalls? (I say this in the spirit of enquiry, not an accusation). You mention that an aura reading can involve a three-part lie detector test. Also would not someone’s sexual proclivities show up?

Rose’s empath merge with Sai Baba (now deceased) leads her to conclude that he is magnificent. However he, too, was accused in a similar way to Saville by many ex-devotees.

As I mentioned above, I am reluctant to label someone without good evidence or an actual confession. I find, however, that, although no allegation has been upheld against Sai Baba, I now harbour a wariness towards him which prevents me from being able to trust him or his teachings. (Which could be my loss if, indeed, he is a magnificent being).

Further Seema Dewan (127 on the list) is a devotee of Sai Baba and she appears to me to be “magnificent” (http://vimeo.com/6502939). Also Gurumayi (female Siddha Yoga Guru, no 55) whose guru was Muktananda, to me, looks magnificent and totally trustworthy.

But what do I know? This article does not paint the celibate guru Gurumayi in such a good light.

P.S. Gurumayi is apparently the guru of Elizabeth Gilbert’s (#45 on Rose’s Enlightenment Life List.)

Share this

Join the Discussion

  1. 1

    MIKE has raised so many interesting points. I have many thoughts to share, but before I shape a follow-up post in response, let’s hear from you, Blog-Buddies.

    Can you believe in Enlightenment when there are sex scandals among the saintly?

    Why do you think someone popular and famous, like Jimmy Saville, could get away with so much for so long? Is it weirder to think of a saint like Muktananda or a major yoga superstar, like John Friend, having feet of clay?

  2. 2
    Amanda says:

    Hello all,

    I don’t think enlightenment necessarily goes hand in hand with being a good human being – it’s a matter of consciousness rather than behaviour.

    And as some of us may attest, being spiritually motivated is not IN THE LEAST the same thing as learning and applying the rules of successful dating! 😀

    Unfortunately I find it all too easy to believe in feet of clay among enlightened gurus: popularity and fame are liable to create a ‘spread your seed’ mating strategy, all the more so because there is no real opportunity for a genuine emotional connection or friendship to form between them and their groups of women.

    We’re into evolutionary primate psychology here, and the simple answer is – ladies, don’t go there until you really know the gentleman concerned, and he’s shown you he’s interested enough to wait.

    That’s my conclusion, anyway 😀

    Amanda

  3. 3
    Primmie says:

    Thank you Mike for this guest post. It is very interesting.

    I don’t know very much about enlightenment and have no interest in having a guru so it may be that I don’t really understand the dynamics discussed here. Personally I would always be somewhat suspicious of anyone who was celibate. I know why historically celibacy has been connected with saintliness but I think connecting the two concepts makes no sense. I find the idea of renouncing or denying sexuality very unhealthy.

    I see it as unhealthy as renouncing money or food, and I think the consequences of celibacy can be extreme.

    Perhaps that’s not really relevant to this discussion, it just seems very odd to me to expect sexual responsibility from people who have ignored their sexuality for years.

  4. 4
    Amanda says:

    The really interesting question then becomes: can a man who can treat a woman with careless and abusive disregard be actually enlightened?

    He#s certainly not a man I would invite round to my house.

    Personally, my answer would be no. Any men on my enlightenment list would need to be a gentleman – in true surrender to the divine feminine, not abusing women for personal gratification and without love.

    Amanda

  5. 5
    Mike says:

    Thanks for your responses Amanda.
    I am sure a lot of the women who have “fallen” for gurus would have felt the same as you. But their defences may be reduced by the hypnotic allure of the guru or celebrity.
    We do tend to treat celebrities differently to gurus. Think of all the rock bands over the years and the number of groupies that were lining up to give themselves to the rock god. However the rock gods were not claiming to have high morals etc.
    Whereas we do expect ALOT more from a guru as they have often quoted or written about lofty morals and ethics and even imposed them on their followers. They are also often claiming to be in direct contact with the divine if not an actual avatar.

    A bit like Bill Clinton denied Cannabis abuse at college by saying he did not inhale. Some of these celibate yogis, ie Muktananda denied breaking his vow of celibacy by clarifying that he did not ejaculate! Leaving a limp penis in a devotees vagina (for an hour plus) in fact was the greatest blessing (shaktipat) she could ever hope to receive.
    Muktananda passed his gift of shakitipat on to both Gurumayi (female) and her brother Swami Nityananda. Interestingly Gurumayi turned a blind eye to Muktananda’s sexual liaisons , but came down heavily on her Swami brother when he had sex with some devotees. She charged him with breaking his vows of celibacy (maybe he confessed to ejaculating!), withdrew his guru status and completely removed all traces of him from the organisation SYDA. Talk about mixed messages!

  6. 6
    Jnana says:

    I keenly await what you have to say, Rose.
    I find all this talk shocking, distasteful even.
    If it is true that all these enlightened gurus crossed sexual boundaries, than I don’t care tuppence for this brand of enlightenment.
    There must be a better state of being to aspire to.

  7. 7
    Mike says:

    Rose mentioned the other day about the effect collective consciousness can have on a leader ie if the group consciousness is low this can then pull down the actions of the groups leader(s) (who may as individuals had higher states of consciousness).
    Perhaps some of the yogis/swamis etc were OK until they got a following and thus became part of a group consciousness, which subsequently effected their behaviours?

    Another question for Rose is: “Can the ‘enlightened state” as per her definition on this site be reversible? ie can a so called enlightened person ‘backslide’ , pick up gunk again, lose the joy in their aura?

    And then there is MAYA. Maybe some of the enlightened ones are not as liberated as they think and Maya is able to draw them back into illusion and ignorance (it does seem to go with her job description)

  8. 8
    A man says:

    Let’s keep in mind that women can be every bit as abusive as men. Plenty of men have been abused by women.

  9. 9
    Mike says:

    Man (8)

    In my experience of working in the area of sexual abuse, in the vast majority of cases the male is the one doing the abusing. But granted females can be implicit and are often more likely to be making “false allegations”.

    But that is not the real issue here. Sex in all its permutations from highest to lowest is part and part of the human condition.
    But, more to the point, what we are exploring here is what part does so called enlightenment play with relation to sexual relations (from healthy to dysfunctional to abusive to celibacy etc).

    and Jnana (6) my intention is not to shock but to explore “the elephant in the room”.

  10. 10
    Mike says:

    Further to my comment (7) about the effects of group consciousness, I found this in Geoffrey Falk’s book “Stripping the Gurus”:

    http://www.strippingthegurus.com/index.html#stgtoc

    “A number of group leaders who evolved into dangerous, authoritarian tyrants seemed truly to have … loving kindness, generosity, selflessness. These leaders were extremely dangerous precisely because they did combine such an unlikely mix of extreme beneficence and extreme abusiveness within them. The beneficence was prominent first, attracted a large, devoted following, and then gradually gave way to a “dark side” that came increasingly into expression over ten or twenty years, imperceptibly turning heaven into hell for the followers.”

  11. 11
    Amanda says:

    Hi Mike 🙂

    Having been hypnotically allured by a ‘guru’ myself, I’m not debating your point, nor am I discussing this from an external ‘shoulda woulda coulda’ perspective.

    I agree the elephant in the room needs to be mentioned. It’s an intense subject, but something to learn for everyone.

    My current exploration has led me to conclude that a copy of ‘He’s Just Not That Into You’ is essential reading for women. That book would put paid to any maharishi you care to mention, as well as the reluctant husbands, part-time boyfriends and depressive relationships that are so commonly seen in normal life.

    The elephant is in no way exclusive to spiritual circles. Until a man stops exploring for ‘options’ and finds his woman, he’s liable to this kind of mess-up. Until a woman learns to accept that men say (and do) what they mean and that they cannot be changed, she’s liable to this kind of mess-up.

    A broad kind of compassion is required here because everyone’s involved in one way or another.

    Making a spiritual leader extra-responsible is probably not that helpful. Rather like Justin Bieber’s experiments with cannabis leading to his followers setting up a ‘Cut For Bieber’ campaign and posting pictures of self-harm until he stopped, public prominence can make human failings exaggeratedly unacceptable. It’s happening all over the place – and the question for everyone is how to pick up the pieces, learn and move on.

    The bonus of dealing with the elephant from a woman’s perspective is more realism about men. I’ve found it intensely painful but also eventually empowering.

    Perhaps one day even something to laugh about! All that fuss over such a little thing. And the idea of a limp willy caliming to be God’s wand and substituting for happy marital sex is, to be frank, pretty laughable at its core – and the joke’s on Mr. Alluring Guru.

    🙂

    Amanda

  12. 12
    Paige says:

    In my reading of the enlightened state, I have come to understand, that 1. There are stages of enlightenment and 2. An enlightened human is not always in that deep awake state. They are able to access that state but also are just “Bill” or “George” the rest of the time and enlightenment does not translate into “Perfect”.
    It is still confusing tho that someone who could access that state would even Need to take advantage of someone sexually.

  13. 13
    Rachel says:

    I agree with Jnana. I don’t know that much about enlightenment, but when I think about it I think of Jesus or the Buddha.

    For me, a definition of enlightenment would require high standards and squeaky clean integrity.

    It may not be the sexual behaviour itself that is most disturbing, but the hypocrisy and lying. Ugh!

  14. 14

    Blog-Buddies, let’s pause in the midst of these important comments to acknowledge each of you who has contributed.

    And also, let’s celebrate this community. You are so wonderfully thoughtful, inquisitive, smart, aces at personal development and spiritual development.

    Please continue adding your questions, your fears, on this topic. I do have a bunch of ideas to add to my upcoming blog post, and will do a better job based on reading all the comments from you’all at this important thread just started by MIKE. Comments so far and comments to come!

    Meanwhile, why so important a thread?

    Important, seems to me, for anyone who cares about pursuing a path to Enlightenment.

    Important for anyone who cares about trust or truth telling or integrity when working with an expert (e.g., a professional healer or teacher).

    Important for anyone who simply cares about protecting yourself!

  15. 15

    I would also like to pause just to share my delightful plight as the blog host here at “Deeper Perception Made Practical.”

    Here I am, honoring commitments to you Blog-Buddies as best I can.

    For an insider’s peek, consider:

    #1. I’m so excited about doing a couple of face readings for the winner of our latest Blog contest. Can’t wait to go and read face!

    #2. Based on a recent face reading comment by ZELDA, there’s a hugely fascinating face reading post to come from that thread she has started, about how to assess a face fad — like one with a certain type of eyebrow. More very practical use of the power of face reading!

    #3. And then, just as I thought I was sorting out my priorities nicely, along comes this thread begun by MIKE.

    With such an emotional charge, of such urgent spiritual import!

    I mean really, even if you didn’t know JNANA personally as I do (and love her to the skies), how could you read her Comment #6 above and not want to drop everything, everything to respond?

    Blog-Buddies, I learn so much from managing this blog, from the give-and-take here, from the great questions. Especially learning about patience.

    Forgive me if I don’t do all hanging blog threads, address them all at once. Because I have more to do than monitor this blog; in my life and career there are certain other monitoring jobs. 😉

    Learning to balance it all best I can, I hope that all you Blog-Buddies know that I really care (at least those of you who care whether or not I care).

    The balancing part is the only hard part of doing this labor of love, actually.

    Patience, right?

  16. 16

    And ditto for the new Comment by RACHEL, one that just came in as I was writing the last comment.

    Don’t turn cynical quite yet, Darlin’. Hang in there.

    No need to make up your mind quite yet, right?

  17. 17
    Mike says:

    Thanks Rose
    I feel very at ease and safe being able to explore these matters within this community.

    Being a meditator I have experienced how powerful kundalini can be, how it can make one luminous and sexually attractive. But equally in my twenties when I was doing lots of meditation, charged up with kundalini and physiologically lots of testosterone, I did not feel the need to seduce women. I met a fellow medical student , we were attracted to each other, we slept in the same bed, naked, for several months, but no sex. She was a virgin, I respected that, it was innocent and tender. I have been married 27years and never been tempted to wander. As a Dr I want the best for my patients and feel I have a reasonable degree of compassion. The thought of needing followers just does not strike a chord with me. However I do not consider that I am anywhere near enlightened and there I guess is the paradox.

    Maybe being a guru is just a “stage” on the path to enlightenment?

    A stage where you will undergo tests.
    Can you cope with a group consciousness?
    Can you remain neutral and detached when virile devotees are offering their bodies to you?
    Can you be compassionate and of genuine service to your followers?
    Do you genuinely see your followers as equal to yourself?

  18. 18
    Primmie says:

    I remember having a similar reaction to Jnana when Rose read Alan Watts. I felt that if a man could be an alcoholic and enlightened, then I had no interest in being enlightened.

  19. 19
    Amanda says:

    I came across something wonderful while watching my ‘Millionaire Matchmaker’ catch up, and it seemed so appropriate to this thread.

    A psychologist lady counselling a bad boy millionaire –

    “The truth is, God built you to be an animal. But women want you to be civilised. Right now you’re still a stud, and your job is to figure out how to get in, get it off and get out. The problem is, you don’t marry that.”

    To me this is the central point, whether it’s a millionaire or a guru or a teenage boy experimenting with dating – until a man starts to look for the one who suits him, with the heart of a gentleman awake inside, there’s going to be unhappiness for everyone.

    It gave me a sense of compassion, because I could see that this guy wasn’t The Big Bad Guy, he was just making the same choice over and over and nobody was happy.

    So, until a man is openly speaking in these terms and searching for connection as an individual, he’s best kept away from. Nothing any woman can do will change him.

    Mike, thank you for starting this thread, it’s helped me to articulate all this (I might not be putting it across so well but I do feel it) – and I am SO PROUD of myself for finally getting it! It’s been three years of struggle and resistance, so I’m giving myself a major pat on the back right now.

    🙂

    Amanda

  20. 20
    Mike says:

    “Ramana Maharshi on overcoming Passions:

    Question – How shall I overcome my passions?

    Ramana Maharshi – Find their root and then it will be easy.
    What are the passions? Kama (lust), krodha (anger), attachment, vanity, greed.
    Why do they arise? Because of likes and dislikes towards the objects seen. How do the objects project themselves in your view? Because of your avidya, i.e., ignorance. Ignorance of what? Of the Self.

    Thus, if you find the Self and abide therein there will be no trouble owing to the passions.

    Again, what is the cause of the passions? Desire to be happy or enjoy pleasure. Why does the desire for happiness arise? Because your nature is happiness itself and it is natural that you come into your own. This happiness is not found anywhere besides the Self.

    Do not look for it elsewhere. But seek the Self and abide therein. Still again, that happiness which is natural is simply re-discovered, so it cannot be lost. Whereas the happiness arising from other objects are external and thus liable to be lost. Therefore it cannot be permanent and so it is not worth seeking. Moreover craving for pleasures should not be encouraged.

    One cannot put out burning fire by pouring petrol over it. An attempt to satisfy your craving for the time being, so that the passion may later be suppressed, is simply foolish.There are, no doubt, other methods for the suppression of passion. They are (1) regulated food, (2) fasting, (3) yoga practice, (4) medicines. But their effects are transitory.

    The passions reappear with greater force as soon as the check is removed.
    The only way to overcome them is to eradicate them. That is done by finding their source as stated above.”

    and again: “Thus, if you find the Self and abide therein there will be no trouble owing to the passions.”

    Conclusion: if one is having trouble with “the passions” one is not enlightened?

  21. 21
    Paige says:

    In rereading this blog I also think of Self Authority vs following a “guru” and expecting him/her to be perfect and all knowing. Also we are all imperfect that’s the point of earth school. We all also (I think) have available the state of enlightenment.
    Rose the one place that is confusing to me is that if you have no more “stuff” when you’re enlightened then why would you be compelled to act in the ways mentioned.
    Thanks Rose!

  22. 22
    Paige says:

    Amanda I’m glad you brought this up. I hear it over and over “Men are just after on thing” “They will use any girl who will give it up” . They’re like animals. I may be lucky, naive or both but I have never experienced that and I’ve been married twice and dated a lot in between. Mike in his comment before you illustrates how he is not like that.
    I’m sure this is true of some maybe many men but I don’t agree with the generalization.

  23. 23
    Paige says:

    Also (I’ve never written so much on this blog, lol) Mike. I don’t think “Guru” is a Stage of Enlightenment. From what I understand the degree and integration of the state of Enlightenment itself grows and changes across time.

  24. 24
    Elaine says:

    Paige, regarding your comment #22, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I don’t feel we can ever generalize any man or woman’s behaviors as falling into a category of it’s like this or like that. And I feel this especially in relation to men, having raised 3 of my own.

    As far as a reality show person saying “God” built men to be animals”, with all due respect and going on my own life experience, it’s plain and simple BS and a cop out.

    I’m not a fan of any reality show as to me they’re all about “unreality”. Of course this is my own opinion and I’m not trying to push my views on anyone else, but I do feel the need to express these opinions here.

  25. 25
    Dana says:

    My understanding so far is that enlightenment means that stuff doesn’t stick to your aura and in each chakra there is joy present. Nowhere in that definition does it say how you should live or act. It seems like you would just be free to choose, not bound by stuff stuck in your aura, debilitating illusions about who you are and what you can do.

    [Blog-Buddies, as DANA continues in this insightful comment, the clarity is really superb. So read this, elevated to “Guest Post” status here:

    https://www.rose-rosetree.com/blog/2013/03/09/enlightenment-sex-scandals-aura-reading-householder-enlightenment/

    And please comment at the new post as well. I will take the liberty of moving subsequent comments until everyone gets into the act, reflecting my experience as blog monitor.]

  26. 26
    Dave says:

    “To me this is the central point, whether it’s a millionaire or a guru or a teenage girl experimenting with dating – until a woman starts to look for the one who suits her, with the heart of a good woman awake inside, there’s going to be unhappiness for everyone.”

    “So, until a woman is openly speaking in these terms and searching for connection as an individual, she’s best kept away from. Nothing any man can do will change her.”

  27. 27
    Elaine says:

    Dave: Unless I’m misunderstanding, I don’t think it can really be termed unhappiness for everyone.

    I would think of it as more like moving through life’s experience. Just becauase dating someone either male or female doesn’t work out, it’s all a learning life experience. It doesn’t have to lead to unhappiness, just a realization that they’re not the right one.

  28. 28
    Jnana says:

    Rose, by all means take your time. As long as you respond eventually, we can all wait.
    Mike, I am fine with your post. I was just shocked (and pained) to learn that Maharishi and the like indulged in such behaviour. And even more shocking is that their disciples and followers who knew this did not pack up and leave (assuming that this is all true).
    A guru does not have to be perfect, yes. All agreed on that. But expecting an advanced swami and especially a maharishi to be celibate is not asking perfection of them. These people are expected to have transformed, internally alchemized, the sex energies to higher subtle energies.
    We will be sympathetic if they fall from the high state they have attained. But then they have to relinquish their roles as guru and go back to being seekers.
    Paige has nailed it when she said ‘if you have no more “stuff” when you’re enlightened then why would you be compelled to act in the ways mentioned.’
    I am hopeful that the scandals associated with some of the enlightened on Rose’s list will be found to be baseless. I cannot reconcile myself with the enlightened behaving in an unenlightened manner.

    Lovely quotations from Ramana Maharishi, Mike. The ‘Self’ Ramana Maharishi talks about. This is key. This is what I would look for in a guru. This is what I would prefer to define as enlightened. Someone who has found the Self and resides therein.

  29. 29
    Paige says:

    Amanda I hope you don’t think you are being ganged up on, I know one of your points was to feel compassion. I just think we need to be careful with a generalization that is dehumanizing.

  30. 30
    Elaine says:

    I think it takes a degree of courage for all of us here to openly express our opinions, whether we all agree or not.

  31. 31
    Amanda says:

    Dave, of course, and I thought that point but didn’t make it because the context was ‘abusive gurus.’

    An awake and responsible woman is also clearly required 🙂

    Amanda

  32. 32
    Amanda says:

    Hi Paige,

    I don’t feel ganged up on in the least, and I have so enjoyed reading your comments, they are truly wonderful.

    I’m also happy to read the comments from people who don’t have direct experience of this, and will say that my own son is a lovely gentle boy and growing into a lovely gentle man.

    However, as this is my PhD, my personal experience has been quite the opposite, and I am not alone in that.

    I think of our divorce rates alone, the prevalence of sex scandals in politics, gossip magazines which exist on this kind of story – and certainly a myriad of examples in my personal experience and the experience of people I have met show that this fundamental point is missing for a lot of us.

    So although I’m happy to accept that there are men and women out there who have got through this learning, perhaps there are a whole bunch of other people out there still working it through, and nothing wrong with them either.

    As for the ‘reality show’ comment – I’ve always learnt best and solved issues most easily from a base of simplicity, and ever since I first took my degree in Experimental Psychology at Oxford I’ve been a reality show watcher – it’s just one of the ways I learn. I know a lot of people turn their noses up at these kind of shows but to me they’re full of interest, humanity, learning and auric modeling and I have never been able to understand why people turn their noses up at these people struggling with their own PhDs and brave enough to do it in public.

    🙂

    Amanda

  33. 33
    Amanda says:

    Elaine,

    What an amazing comment 26! I think you put it in a nutshell and that’s the attitude that eventually has to be found to put this kind of issue back to sleep.

    However, being human, we will bring fear, pain, blame and shame to these areas until they clear and this attitude takes its place.

    To me that’s why compassion is central to this issue and your approach the ideal resolution.

    Thank you 🙂

    Amanda

  34. 34
    Amanda says:

    I especially like the idea of leaving these gurus in a place where we merely say ‘They hadn’t found the right woman yet’.

    😀

    Amanda

  35. 35
    Primmie says:

    Jnana wrote “A guru does not have to be perfect, yes. All agreed on that. But expecting an advanced swami and especially a maharishi to be celibate is not asking perfection of them. These people are expected to have transformed, internally alchemized, the sex energies to higher subtle energies.”

    I think the idea that people can do this is nonsense. I have a very limited experience of guru’s that’s for sure. I have never met one, but guru’s are human. I just can’t see how it’s possible for a human to transform the sexual drive in a healthy way. Repress it, ignore it, damage it, but turn it into something else that is higher or better? To me that sounds absurd.

  36. 36
    Primmie says:

    I’d like to add that I do think it’s possible to heal sexuality, absolutely, but I really don’t buy the idea that anyone is “above” sex.

  37. 37
    Jnana says:

    Just to share.

    We reincarnate as men and women thus we can’t really talk about the opposite gender as something apart from ourselves. Arguments between genders are essentially arguments with oneself.

    It is helpful to see ourselves as the cause of all our experiences. It’s more empowering as well. It means we get to change the things we don’t like in our lives. No other person gets to spoil things for us except ourselves. And Rose’s healing skills can speed things up for us in this respect.

  38. 38
    Lara says:

    It just occurred to me that people here are sooo.. respectful, thoughtful, kind to each other here. I don’t know, its different to so many other websites. It’s never stressful reading people’s comments here even when they are disagreeing, its always interesting and kind.

    [Blog-Buddies, I agree. Grateful, I am going to place the rest of LARA’s comment into a special new blog post. Please check it out here:

    https://www.rose-rosetree.com/blog/2013/03/09/enlightenment-sex-scandals-aura-reading-householder-enlightenment/

    Any further comments at this thread will be moved to the newer blog post. Comment away, Blog-Buddies!]

  39. 39
    Elaine says:

    Hi Amanda: Glad to hear you took my comment in the spirit it was intended. Sometimes I just put it out there and then I’m wondering if I’m just too plain spoken.

    Regarding reality shows, let me clarify I rarely watch TV, movies once in a while.

    From my viewpoint, the reality show thing I find distasteful and surface oriented. And from what I have seen of it (my kids do watch some shows) it manipulates the viewer’s perception.

    My opinion is they will do whatever necessary to bring up the ratings. Turn on the tears, be spiteful, make ridiculous statements. The more outrageous, the higher the ratings can go.

    With the cameras rolling I doubt there are many real emotions or real reactions. It would be interesting to do chakra databank research during a reality show episode. How much of a “reality show” is reality, down to the chakra databanks?

    Example, a show about Sweet 16 birthday parties. A 16 year old girl’s father throws her a one million dollar party and gives her a $100,000 car for her birthday, throws a party bash with 200 close friends, hires a well known pop band…and on. I always wonder, what is she going to get for her 17, 18, 21st birthday and the rest of her life? If her emotions and actions are 100% real, and they may be, it’s a scary wake up call.

    Then this 16 year old throws a hissy fit because her shoes aren’t exactly as she expected or it’s not exactly the band she wanted. And this is put out there for everyday kids to watch.

    Or the participants on the popular Survivor show trying to win a prize so there’s backstabbing, manipulation, lying, cheating, to get there.

    It appears you’re studying it from a different, learning perspective. For myself, it’s just showing a certain collective consciousness “segment” of our society that is pandering to lesser aspirations in life.

    I’m at a point in my life where I have no patience with manipulation, petty grievances, nitpicking, etc. and that plays into my choice not to watch these shows.

    I just don’t have the interest to look any deeper than the surface and I really do think most of it is surface.

  40. 40
    Elaine says:

    To clarify last sentence, I don’t have any interest to look deeper than the surface of “reality shows.”

  41. 41
    Paige says:

    I came across the following in Tim Freke’s book “The Awakened State” (he is on Rose’s enlightened list), that I think applies to this thread.
    “When we’re spiritually childish we become easily enamored with spiritual glamour. We like our teachers to have exotic names and wear exotic clothes. We want our masters to be “fully enlightened” although we don’t stop to ask ourselves what this could possible mean. Even better, we want a guru who’s an incarnation of God, come to rescue us if we trust in his grace. We’re looking for daddy to take care of us. I know… I’ve been there!
    These days, however, I feel very different. Now I’m attracted to teachers who know they are also students…. who don’t pretend to be perfect… who feel safe enough to show their human vulnerability. Indeed, it seems obvious to me that if I want to judge a teacher I need to examine their students. How many have they taught so well that the students no longer need the teacher? Surely that’s a teacher’s job?
    The danger of being spiritually childish is that we end up in a cult around a parental figure who actually has no interest in us ever growing up. When we follow a teacher who claims to be an ultimate authority, this undermines our ability to become our own authority, which is what needs to happen if we are to awaken.”

  42. 42
    Primmie says:

    Amanda, I watch reality shows. I also read the popular press. I like social media too. I find most things to do with communication fascinating. I get quite passionate about all the new ways of learning that are available now.

  43. 43
    Amanda says:

    Hi Elaine,

    I’m fascinated by this idea that participants in reality shows may be ‘putting it on’. I know this is a common remark and have read it before, but from what I can see it’s not true.

    The pressure of going beneath cameras would undoubtedly up emotional intensity and pressure, and I don’t think reality show producers would choose participants who didn’t make dramatic viewing – that’s for sure.

    But I genuinely think they are real! This for me is the interest.

    I do know what you mean about ‘Sweet Sixteen’ and laughed when I read what you said – my daughter has watched it before. It is certainly an eye-opener in terms of what people can get upset about. But again, I know that this happens in real life – materialism is standard issue for many people and that’s just where they are and it may never change.

    It’s not my thing but I can see it’s very real for them – and that’s where I find the shows fascinating, because each of us are living in such different internal worlds with such different lessons and focus points – these shows give a glimpse into that, and into these myriad adventures.

    🙂

    Amanda

  44. 44
    Jordan says:

    Amanda, I don’t watch a ton of reality TV, but from what I do see, it’s obvious that the situations are put-on.

    In other words, the producers concoct some ridiculous situation for them to find themselves in, stir up trouble, etc. So a lot of it seems (is) real since they’re not straight up acting, but there is still a very healthy dose of fiction mixed in.

    Not to mention the editing!!! Until you’ve seen weeks’ worth of raw footage cut up and glued together into a 20 minute narrative, it’s hard to understand how much impact editing has. (Also why I advise taking documentary films with a big, huge grain of salt!)

  45. 45
    Miranda says:

    Interesting posts from everyone. From what I have read and understand of Rose’s definition of Enlightenment, a person is still very much human, but is free of stuff. For me the bottom line of behaviour is integrity. If you are a spiritual teacher who is claiming to be celibate and then starts having sex with students, consensual or not, to me this is a lack of integrity and also an abuse of power. There is a teacher/student relationship between guru and follower. The guru could just as easily say that celibacy is not a requirement on their path and then they would be more honest with themselves and their followers.
    Whether it is about sex (and some say that sex is more about power than about sex in these situations) or anything else, to me it is the congruency of their words and behaviour. And when it comes to spiritual teachers, we hold them more accountable for some reason. If they are enlightened, then I think the bar would become higher in that regard.
    So I guess I also wonder how someone who is Enlightened could be so incongruent and lack integrity. This is not expecting perfection but honesty.

  46. 46
    Mike says:

    Miranda

    Very well put.

    I also agree with your comment about sex and power.

    Also why with regard to the search for enlightenment do we use the word “truth” so much?
    Does this not imply that there can also be untruth or falsity (a perversion of truth originating in the deceitfulness of one party, and culminating in the damage of another party)?

    Are we not in a way communicating (energetically) all the time, not just when speaking or writing?

    Thus our actions can speak louder than words.

    This would then bring us onto perception and misperception (but this could be a whole topic in itself?) i e how do we interpret those non verbal communications (actions).

    And finally is not the very definition of guru, someone who leads us from the dark into the light (and not vice (excuse the pun) verse?

  47. 47
    Rachel says:

    MIRANDA,

    Great comment. I completely agree.

  48. 48
    Judy Lavine says:

    We are learning beings on planet earth ~ People are people, enlightened or not. We are ALL learning, enlightened or not. We all make mistakes, enlighten or not.
    Personally, I think what keeps some people doing the “right thing” is a matter of integrity. Is our “deep down internal” personal integrity 100%, 90% 50%?
    Some of my clients ask me to what extend is a healer, guru, enlightened teacher truly in the light ~ when I “look” I do not often find 100%! However, if someone is 90% and above, I’ll say, “Go for it ~ make an appointment.”

  49. 49

    JUDY, so lovely to hear from you.

    And this emphasis on integrity is so very important. I couldn’t agree more.

    For any of you Blog-Buddies who don’t know, that JUDY is also on our Enlightenment Life List.

  50. 50
    Elaine says:

    One last thing on reality shows. I really think the first “producer” who came up with the term “reality show” had their tongue firmly planted in their cheek.
    🙂

  51. 51

    Well, ELAINE, light-hearted jest or deep contempt while manipulating a gullible public or whatever? You know, the only way to tell with Energy Literacy:

    Find the photo of that producer during that moment, or when doing the first pitch to another executive.

    Then leap in boldly with aura reading and find out in detail, one wacky chakra at a time.

    Personally, I’m feeling a bit like a bobblehead, having just completed most of today’s post with the reading of Pope Francis.

    Saw your comment come in and had to pause for a refreshing, restorative smile. Now, back to finishing up the before-and-after becoming Pope… Skilled Empath Merge.

  52. 52
    Christine says:

    Does mike mean when he says that false allegations are common, that false allegations of sexual assault(I’m guessing he means rape too) and child sexual abuse against famous people, people in power, and gurus are common or just against ordinary people? Because I heard the opposite unless we’re talking about custody disputes, and they are usually by the parent.

  53. 53
    Suz says:

    Without having read any of the other comments, I would offer that for people involved in the eastern tradition it may be one thing — tantra. The practice of it can result in some of the finest bliss there is.

    May I submit that it may not start out being about sex at all — indeed, you don’t even have to disrobe or expose anything to mingle your yin/yang energies — but about the transcendence of tantra. It would be very easy to get addicted to the experience, since the aftermath lasts hours.

    Should I admit I have had one such experience, and it was the best sex I Never had.

    Okay, let me go back and read your interesting ideas. 🙂

  54. 54
    Mike says:

    From the Ashtavakra Gita

    3.4
    Having realized yourself as pure Awareness, as beautiful beyond description,
    how can you remain a slave to lust?
    3.5
    It is strange
    that in a sage who has realized
    Self in All and All in Self
    this sense of ownership should continue.
    3.6
    Strange that one abiding in the Absolute, intent on freedom,
    should be vulnerable to lust
    and weakened by amorous pastimes.

  55. 55

    Well, MIKE, I sympathize with your finding it strange that human beings can have problems, even when Enlightened.

    However, there is a big difference between ideals and romantization of Enlightenment versus noticing what happens in human life. In particular, I am a fan of using energetic literacy skills to sort out the complications. Hey, you knew that. 😉

  56. 56

    Also, I believe passionately that Householder Enlightenment is not about just “Abiding in the Absolute.”

    Who knows how many Enlightened men of old, adored exemplars of Renunciate Enlightenment — plus seekers of that ideal — abided in a rather secluded manner within their ashrams. Unbeknownst to the public, or even hushed up within the ashram, how many were really quite mad or socially dysfunctional?

  57. 57

    In our own lifetimes, haven’t we found much more willingness to stop hiding people with physical disabilities and to acknowledge the humanity of people in the LGBTQ community?

    Let’s break age-old taboos of having to make human beings whom we admire be standardized and sanitized. Or perfect in every way, according to mainstream thinking.

    Regarding spiritual ideals, how about being willing to call a spade a spade, and stop sanctifying people with high levels of consciousness who aren’t humanly perfect? How about we were to stop excusing messed-up behavior?

    Perhaps we would have fewer cults that way. Enlightened men and women are magnificent, glorious. But nobody on earth is protected from making mistakes.

    Let’s acknowledge what is. Also known as “Reality.” None of this has to be judgmental, gleeful, or gossipy.

    Controversial, sure. But since when was questioning forbidden as a way to learn and evolve, in our time, anyway?

    I would rather learn from Socrates than two founders of religion who were very, very sure they had all the answers, Mary Baker Eddy and Brigham Young. (Not that either of these last two were Enlightened, IMHO.)

  58. 58
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    I love all of your comments. So interesting & insightful !

    2 things that bother me the most about Gurus who have sex with their followers (and i don’t know which ones specifically did or didn’t) is that they are taking advantage – it is like a boss in the workplace having sex with one of his employees.

  59. 59
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    i consider that their power is imbalanced, much harder for the follower to say no to the guru because the student trusts the guru to be ‘honest’ and ‘not take advantage’ of them.

    that is like Sexual Harassment.

  60. 60
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    the other thing that really bothers me is that they claim to be celibate but are secretly not celibate.

    why not be honest and say “sex is good, you can be enlightened and don’t have to be celibate.”

  61. 61
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    and ok if they slip up once and sleep with one student and then regret it and stop doing that, or come out as not celibate ?

    but mostly they don’t do that, they have sex with student after student.

  62. 62
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    i think it is really interesting that they don’t accumulate ‘Stuff’ but behave in ways that i see as poor integrity, because i always thought Stuff was what causes us to behave in less than integrous ways.

    i am eager to learn more about this !

  63. 63
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    i see that being enlightened on earth is different from being an Ascended Master. very different ! 🙂

    well of course one has a body, and one doesn’t.

  64. 64
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    but, i guess there must be different levels of enlightenment ?

    or good days & bad days for people – fluxuating ?

  65. 65
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    i am not saying i am perfect, or have the right to judge, i have made Plenty of mistakes.

    but it seems like there are mistakes and then there are MISTAKES….

    there are small ‘sins’ or ‘slipups’ and then big huge banana peel GIANT Slipups where you end up in the mud !

    so i am very interested to learn much more about this from Rose and all of you !

  66. 66
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    i see what Amanda meant and the book “he’s just not that into you’ is a wonderful book.

    there are great guys out there (and great women) and then there are men who want to sleep around (and some women too).

    that is ok, as long as they are honest, & admit it. but a lot of them are sneaky (or don’t consciously know what they want.)

  67. 67
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    women who want a relationship that hope and hope that they will change, will hopefully be helped by the super awesome “he’s just not that into you” book.

    And also, even better, i hope that more & more people will learn energetic literacy – so that we can all have very healthy ways of assessing when a person is honest or not honest and trustworthy or non trustworthy !

  68. 68
    Wendy Wyrot says:

    then trustworthy and honest (but don’t have to be perfect) people will be the ones that are considered Beautiful !!!

    that is a world that i want to live in and to work toward.

    hugs ! Wendy

  69. 69
    David B says:

    Hi Wendy
    If you don’t mind, I’ll tackle a few of your points from my perspective.

    I would suggest it’s more than sexual harassment. Abuse of power for a guru is actually very difficult karma. But many eastern monks are unprepared for western culture. And many monks are unsuited to be so.

  70. 70
    David B says:

    It’s also one thing to stop accumulating Stuff and another to be clear of the old Stuff.

    Rose defines enlightenment as more than spiritual awakening – free of Stuff so the divine can shine through.

    However, she’s also noted that frozen blocks can still exist in the enlightened. They’re inactive and thus don’t impede clarity. But they can still be triggered, leading to unenlightened behaviour.

  71. 71
    David B says:

    The key is, the enlightened are still human and what created their humanness was what was unresolved in their past.

  72. 72
    David B says:

    And yes, there are different levels of enlightenment. Different stages in the development of our relationship with Consciousness. We might call the threshold Rose uses for enlightenment to be stage 2.

    She has an article that describes some of the stages.
    https://www.rose-rosetree.com/blog/2012/04/11/enlightenment-develops-self-actualization-realization-chakra-databanks/

Click here to comment ...

Leave Your Comment