Deeper Perception Made Practical

Exploring Enlightenment, Jeffrey Chappell and Rose Rosetree Interview Each Other, Part 1

Josefa Perea, Professional in Rosetree Energy Spirituality, offering sessions in Spanish as well as English

Josefa Perea, a professional at Rosetree Energy Spirituality who has benefitted from Enlightenment Coaching

What happens when two Enlightenment Coaches interview each other?

Find out, Blog-Buddies. Here’s Part One of our two-part interview, about 20 minutes:

About these two Enlightenment Coaches

Jeffrey Chappell dedicates an entire website to his work as an Enlightenment Coach, and has published “Answers from Silence.”

I offer Enlightenment Coaching more informally.

If you have questions about this interview, ask away, Blog-Buddies. Big thanks to Jeffrey for doing these experimental interviews with me.

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  1. 1

    Blog-Buddies, I just listened to this Part One interview for the first time — different from recording it on May 29th….

    I’m so grateful to you, JEFFREY, for opening up this dialogue with me.

    Our fun improvisation. Part One ends with a clunk, as I clearly do not have fancy skills as a sound engineer. Yet the content is there, the ideas fun for listening to.

  2. 2

    Listening, I notice that I didn’t speak about my sense of identity in the “personal” way that you did, JEFFREY.

    My experience of the self is contrasting. I experience myself as a concentrated version of the Divine, walking around with the identity of Rose Rosetree.

    This is a much more concentrated version of Divine presence than happened before crossing the threshold into Enlightenment.

    However, in my case, and the case of many others in Enlightenment, there IS still a sense of personal self. It is not a state of non-duality. One name for this experience of the Divine as self, still doing one’s human life, is “Householder Enlightenment.”

  3. 3

    DAVID’s Comment #4 about Enlightenment at a post in this series describes this beautifully.

  4. 4

    Looking forward to more comments here from JEFFREY, like this one that came in today as Comments 21 and 22 at an earlier post on the Enlightenment Coaching thread.

  5. 5
    David.. says:

    One thing about this conversation – it’s important not to confuse a specific persons experiences of the process with the process itself. There are several factors at play that can shift the experience in various ways.

    Rose for example, was very aware of the divine prior to her shift. So she is much more conscious of that during and after it. More refined perception.

  6. 6
    David.. says:

    It’s also worth noting that Rose defines Enlightenment (briefly) as free of Stuff and with divine presence. This is not the initial awakening many others are referring to.

    So you have to be careful which fruit you’re comparing.

    Further, many recognize only the initial shift. Some even actively discount later stages as illusory. And many confuse the initial shift with “non-duality”.

  7. 7
    David.. says:

    “We’re basically all enlightened and we just forget that sometimes,”
    This is much like saying consciousness is already awake to itself but became lost in the details.

    This is true from one level of experience but as the old saying goes “Knowledge is different in different stages of consciousness”. Applying the true of one stage to another isn’t really valid.

  8. 8
    David.. says:

    One of the reasons I mention the last part is that people get caught by truths of other stages and try to act as if it’s true for them when it’s not actually. This can become another form of denialism. It’s far more important to recognize what is true for you now.

    That said, it is useful to recognize higher truths as they can sometimes trigger an awakening. I know several who switched just in recognizing it was real in another.

  9. 9
    David.. says:

    The mirror analogy is good example of knowledge being different. When I look in the mirror, what is reflected back overshadows the apparent form.

    Didn’t have to break the mirror. Just the identification with the perception.

  10. 10
    David.. says:

    I would also mention that “consciousness is conscious primarily of consciousness.” is a great way to define the unfolding of what is known as Atman in India, the cosmic or universal Self.

    This starts within with Self Realization, unfolds into what Rose calls Enlightenment, then on into Unity.

    But this is not the end of the process. The Great Awakening is to Brahman, transcending Atman and consciousness.

  11. 11
    David.. says:

    and I have not even listened to the conversation yet – this is just a response to comments on the prior post. (laughs)

  12. 12

    DAVID, your comments are jewels, and so appreciated.

    It is a gentle, tender topic, about a person’s state of consciousness. I am very aware of how knowledge is different in different states of consciousness. Within the patterns that show Enlightenment, as I define it, lies room for many and varied experiences.

    Your discernment, DAVID, amplifies your detailed, experienced-based knowledge of a range of those experiences. Validation is so important as people move in and out of new and different phases of growth. Big thank you!

  13. 13

    On this Part One Recording, JEFFREY generously shares what his personal/no-longer personal experience is like.

    By contrast, I speak in terms of how a person knows, discerns, and can appropriately define Enlightenment. Because I’m aware that there are many variations on this theme, all of them gorgeous and valid… and still within the range of Enlightenment.

  14. 14

    Whatever your experiences, Blog-Buddies, I hope that posts and recordings and discussions like these help you to feel good about yourself. Never is the point for you to compare yourself to anyone else. Rather, value your own experiences and keep on a-growing.

    One reason I speak about Enlightenment as I do — rather than going into a lot of personal experience — is that it is helpful to value one’s experience as it is.

  15. 15
    Isabella says:

    Thank you Rose and Jeffrey. This was really wonderful to listen to…

    The way you (Rose) pick up on potential problems in consciousness listeners might have after hearing certain ideas (like worrying, “Is this really my direct experience??”) is really amazing and instructional to me. And of course it demonstrates such caring for your listeners. Always teachin’!! <3

  16. 16
    David.. says:

    Thanks for the conversation, Rose and Jeffrey.

    You started out in different places about “enlightenment” and then moved to some agreement. I agree with how Jeffrey talked abut the shift in identity. Rose focuses more on a more established state as I noted in comment #6.

    Both of these are the result of your respective experiences, Rose developing more of the refinement and Jeffrey focusing more on the shift in consciousness itself. From my perspective, they’re kind of parallel processes, the feminine and masculine or sattva and atman.

  17. 17
    David.. says:

    I agree with Jeffrey on not confusing cause and effect and on the discussion around confusing experiences with being.

    A lot of experiences can sound a lot like it, but without that identity shift, that’s not it. Similarly, a lot of the descriptions of advanced stages can sound a lot like prior stages but are quite distinct.

  18. 18
    David.. says:

    I agree with Jeffrey’s point about speaking from experience but I also find it useful to tap into how others speak of it. Not everyone experiences the process the same way and several times, I’ve created boxes in understanding when I only used my own experience.

    I’ve been fortunate to be present when many others have had their identity shift into initial awakening and in a number of cases, have been able to follow their progress. This has been very helpful in getting a bigger picture of the process.

  19. 19
    David.. says:

    Because of the way things have unfolded here, I’ve also tended to speak more about what I’ve learned from experience rather than the experiences themselves. The second can be misleading without a bunch of explaining prior.

  20. 20
    Daisy says:

    Thank you Rose and Jeffrey! This enlightenment series is so very exciting and helpful. I love hearing the different perspectives you both have and yet I can see the underlying “sameness.” Also David, I always enjoy your comments, you are a great resource to RR blog community!

  21. 21

    Thank you, Davidya, for tracking and weighing in on this conversation, and for your keen discernment of the fine nuances–that is very clarifying.

  22. 22

    I will therefore go ahead and quote somebody for once, because I heard this only very recently and it was a good discovery. Lao Tzu: “We are the mirror and the face in it.” To me, this is a condensed expression of the Vedic trinity of the knower, the process of knowing, and the known. “We are” is the knower, “the mirror” is the process of knowing, and “the face in it” is the known. And “consciousness is conscious of consciousness” is another wording of the same.

  23. 23

    And not to confuse anyone, because I already used the mirror analogy in my other comment, which was then commented on by David–that was in the context of “not remembering we’re enlightened”. The Lao Tzu quote is offered instead in the context of “how consciousness operates.”

  24. 24

    So, a question for David. I have commented on the saying, “I am That, Thou art That, all This is That” as an expression of progressive stages of consciousness. “I am That” is where the inner Self is known as the Eternal, “Thou art That” is where the outer world is known also to be the Eternal, and “all This is That” is the removal of distinction between inner and outer. And then there is the silence at the end of the saying. Do these correspond to your schedule (comment #10) of Self Realization, Enlightenment, Unity, and The Great Awakening?

  25. 25

    JEFFREY and other Blog-Buddies, yes, I agree that it is lovely having you here, DAVID, sharing your insights. It’s lovely having the insights of all of you who are contributing to this thread.

    I’d like to make a humbler point amid all the lofty discussion of various states of consciousness that qualify as Enlightenment:

    By the time you are walking around as the Divine in a body (to whatever degree you maintain a sense of that personal self), it may not matter terribly much to you what the proper name is for that progression within Enlightenment.

  26. 26

    Certainly, in my role as an Enlightenment Coach, my chief desire is to help people cross over that threshold.

    And for that, gaining Enlightenment, your life and concerns and goals as the very person you are — THAT individual householder with THIS very human relationship problem being uppermost or THAT particular desire to accomplish more at work.

    That life of yours — THAT one, and whatever about that is up for you now as a human being — THAT can become your intention for a session with a practitioner of Rosetree Energy Spirituality that moves you further along on your path to Enlightenment. Or THAT can become your motivation to study with JEFFREY or DAVID or whomever you choose to help you.

  27. 27

    You, making THAT choice, in you own way. As you progress, in that brilliant way you do, on THAT journey:

    Don’t let the fancy road signs in Enlightenment Land distract you, Blog-Buddies.

    It is always YOUR journey, being lived in your terms, that will get you there… with a bit of grace of God added… when your nervous system — that mind-body-spirit system of yours is pure enough — and also when God decides to issue the invitation.

  28. 28
    David.. says:

    Hi Jeffrey
    On the new mirror example (comment 22), I’d agree. In fact that dynamic is fundamental not just to experiencing but all of creation. Space arises from self-aware consciousness noticing the distinction of observer and observed. (knower and known) Time arises from the process of experience itself. And space-time is the container in which all forms arise.

  29. 29
    David.. says:

    Jeffrey: re your question in comment 24.

    One way of looking at that set of phrases, yes, is a description of the progression of stages. Self Realization (or Cosmic Consciousness), God Consciousness, and Unity.

    What Rose describes as Enlightenment is kind of between CC and GC. But it’s worth noting that consciousness opening to itself and refinement of perception (Atman and sattva) are actually 2 parallel processes rather than a linear progression.

  30. 30
    David.. says:

    This is why some people go from CC to Unity with little awareness of the divine, while others have much more divine awareness but are not yet awake. etc.

    The model I use now is from the Yog Vasishtha in the Ramayana. 3 stages of consciousness (CC, Unity, and Brahman) interlaced with a continuous process of refinement. But the refinement is reframed each time the stage of consciousness changes. Once Brahman is established, atman is complete. Then refinement is essentially endless.

    Working on a longer article about it but here’s a summary, if its of interest:

  31. 31
    David.. says:

    But back to the original question, each of those 3 phrases comes from a distinct Upanishad from a different book of the Vedas. They are not actually a saying together. And there is a fourth, from the Rk Veda, the mother of them all, “That alone is”. We might then associate this last one with Brahman stage but that would be a mistake. Brahman is beyond “is” and consciousness.

    Shankara drew the phrases together as the 4 Mahavakyas or “great sayings”. The Unity shift is a shift in the intellect, from looking out and dividing to turning within and joining. The idea is that one of the mahavakyas is used to trigger that realization. It varies by person which.

  32. 32
    David.. says:

    In practice, I’ve not seen it be quite so specific. There is often the release of a core grip in the gut that was previously unconscious. Then a deeper falling away of the sense of identity. (deeper than ego) And then a loss of the division of “inside” and “outside”. And then a surrender into it. (or variations thereof)

    Then the experience shifts to a whole series of ‘experience and become’ as all layers of experience are joined into one wholeness.

    The Bramha Sutra describes this as the “aggregate” and evidently describes the series of recognitions of this process. But presently, there are no published translations that recognize this. Most see it as an series of intellectual arguments.

  33. 33
    David.. says:

    So we could say there is a surface way of seeing the phrases, and a much deeper way.

    If interested, here is an article that outlines the 4 and their sources, plus “related realizations” I’d now describe as stages of refinement in knowledge of the cosmic.

  34. 34
    David.. says:

    Finally, a bit more on the Great Awakening or Brahman shift. This is a stage where we transcend Atman into Brahman. This means all of the development of Unity, consciousness, existence, and so forth is transcended.

    This typically takes place in 2 stages, followed by it’s maturing. I reviewed some of the details here:

  35. 35
    David.. says:

    I agree. The words only matter when you try to support someone else, try to communicate it. Then you have to get a little more specific with terminology, much as you do all the time on this blog.

    One of the reasons Rick of BATGAP started his interviews, including yours, was to demonstrate it was real and happening to ordinary people.

    I happen to have a strong mind and get into the nuances. That’s valuable for some people and a total bore for others.

    Many people stop using words like “enlightenment” because its so loaded and doesn’t describe the perfectly normal experience of discovering you’re a limitless being.

    And yes – no need to be perfect. I’m a fine example of that. Just pure enough for the light to shine through, more or less. (laughs)

  36. 36
    Suz says:


  37. 37

    Sweet, generous, and helpful, DAVID.

    And joyfully acknowledging your contributions here too, JEFFREY, DAISY, SUZ.

  38. 38

    I just got off the phone with a lovely new client, GLADYS. Our session brings home to me why it is, exactly, that I consider myself an Enlightenment Coach. Yet I don’t have much interest right now in the fine points of Enlightenment, once a person has crossed that threshold.

    GLADYS is a deeply spiritual person. She met me through my interview on Enlightenment at Rick Archer’s website, Buddha at the Gas Pump.

    What was going on with this long-time spiritual seeker?

  39. 39

    Way too much work.

    Plus a fierce spiritual addiction.

    Plus, at a subconscious level, loads of energetic subroutines.

    Have you ever heard of techniques like these?

    * Try to connect with your soul while in the midst of daily life.
    * Try to live in accordance with your Divine Pattern.
    * Try to live with an open heart.
    * Try to connect to God, even while doing everyday life.

  40. 40

    Until we commit to human living, it won’t help to spend all day doing techniques for spiritual evolution. Or dreaming about Enlightenment.

    Until significant emotional and energetic STUFF is moved out of our auras at the astral level, and we receive PUT-IN that maintains permanent healing…

    There will be an insatiable hunger for God, or for The Romance of the Astral.

    And spiritual addiction will become a substitute for human-based spirituality.

  41. 41

    And that, Blog-Buddies, is why I do all I can to teach energetic literacy, teach skills, facilitate healing.

    Sure, I’m a huge fan of Enlightenment Coaching.

    Directly or indirectly, every session that I facilitate aims to help with that (if my client also is aiming for Enlightenment).

    Yes, I believe it is possible to be an Enlightenment Coach who mostly speaks the language of “Human.”

  42. 42

    Whether official techniques or unofficial good-faith attempts to evolve, practices like these mixed in with everyday life will actually SLOW DOWN a person’s spiritual growth.

    Subconscious habits can develop that automatically cause a deeply sane, spunky person like GLADYS to (for a while) drift around in an astral fog, neither here nor there, and definitely not growing much emotionally or spiritually.

    Aura reading at the level of chakra databanks shows this quite clearly. And, of course, anyone — not just clairvoyants or psychics — can develop basic skills of energetic literacy. Then you can read chakra databanks in yourself or others, in person or from regular photos. Easy-peasy.

    In fact, there might even come a time when professional psychics use skills of energetic literacy and then supplement that with using skills to do psychic readings.

  43. 43
    David.. says:

    Reminds me of the dying the cloth analogy, Rose. If you want the colour to be fast, you have to bleach it in the sun. You have to live life as it is.

    So much escapism ironically keeps us stuck with what we don’t want.

    Getting a little side-tracked is pretty common. So beating ourselves up over a few stumbles is equally pointless. But if we find we’re diving on the shoulder or in the ditch, we just need to adjust the steering a bit. 😉

  44. 44

    Thanks, Isabella, Daisy, Suz, David, and especially Rose for getting this going!

  45. 45

    JEFFREY, old and dear and so-cherished friend, you are so welcome.

    You inspired our Recording #1, and tomorrow I plan to play our Recording #2, so you’all come back to this blog to keep up the conversation, please.

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